Curse

Sid Soggybottom · Nov 02, 2006, 04:51 PM // 16:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thallandor

Well after all that, you still havent mention if you agree on the AI or not, or is your intention here purely here to flamebait and troll soggybottom?

First of all, you are the one calling people names. Second, I've made my opinion of the A.I. very clear on at least 5 other similar threads. So sue me if I thought that I already stated my opinion on yet another thread.

But since you asked for my opinion, I think the monster A.I. is just fine. If I can get through the campaign even after the Halloween update, then I don't see why so many are complaining that it's too hard. And I am far far from being the "best" players.

As I've said before and many others have as well, there are ways to improvise and adapt to the new A.I. It is far from impossible or frustrating. It's no longer a mindless clickfest of skill buttons now and that's a good thing.

EDIT: Also Thallandor, you should stop PM harassing me with swearing and insults.

garethporlest18 · Nov 02, 2006, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Well throughout the course of this thread my opinion varied. But I think I've finally come to a conclusion. This update was for the better. I just realized that if I keep my hero prot monk, use Mhenlo..and then have a support/damage with another suppor ele that has remove hex and heal party with some defense earth skills for the part (or water) that I'd be just fine off too. I'm going to test it out when I wake up or when I next have a chance to see how it works.

This update does require you to think, which is okay. But I do think some tweaks in the hero's AI needs to be implemented. Such as proper use of skills at the right times to maintain energy.

Perkunas · Nov 02, 2006, 05:15 PM // 17:15

When I get a chance to play, I have perhaps an hour or 2 at a time. Sometimes I want to just come online, grab a couple of henches and KILL something. I don't want to come on and keep dieing as soon as I walk out the gate. I don't want to spend 2 hours just adding to my death count.

Like I said in an earlier post or 2, I am done with this game, and not buying NF. There was enough challenge to this game when I bought it. Now it is impossible. I have been playing 10 months, finally have a character (E/Me, a mix of fire & water) thru all the missions (2 weeks ago and with only 348 deaths), and now I have to learn the whole thing over again.

I will watch here to see if and when the balance is returned to what it was when I bought this game.

Tommy · Nov 02, 2006, 05:34 PM // 17:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karmaniac

Despite their name food stamps are not edible nor is the bullfrog the size of a bull. I think people have the right to decide how they want to play the game.

hmm not really, that is why anet is pushing ppl to play the way they wanted. you buy FIFA and need for speed, you play soccer and drive cars

. you can't kill nobody in fifa right

? you only pay the fee to enter anet's house, you dont own this place you are just a guest. you can 't really do w/e you want, in most mmorph you can't really.you neither change yourself or you change the game you play, i dont think anet will reprogram the game for you

..
and to Perkunas, then you are not coming back

i am sure that we will miss you. anet nerf aoe long time and ago and they they never change it back and i doubt that they will change thsi one. and btw you can still kill things with your heroes, i kill most monsters outside the gate with easy. just not the high lvl ones

...

Cyan The Archer · Nov 02, 2006, 05:59 PM // 17:59

I find it really funny how both my healer hench + Cynn are able to die against a single Margonite group, and even more funny when i sent Koss to attack a group, to get aggro but the monsters just ignored him, even though we were out of their aggro circle. This AI sucks, and if Anet dont change it, i will probably get bored of this game pretty soon.

This change is by far the worst thing Anet have ever made. I'm not going to waste my money on a hero(Who by the way, is unbelieveable bugged), give him runes, and find a working build for. If you thought we were going to use our Heroes all the time, Anet, then you were wrong. How am i supposed to control 3 heroes, who can take up to 10 seconds to move back, when i tell them to, and attack random groups outside the aggro circle. I can't have 4 skill bars to control, because that would be too hard for me, but i have to. Heroes dont have their elite as a priority, and have no working energy management(Unless you call cancel a skill several times "energy management". Henchmen have skills they know how to use, and runes i dont have to pay for, but even though they know how to use them they still have a hard time because this other group or the group im attacking just decided to attack all on the monk. Anet, either update the heroes use of skills or change it back the way it was. Because this is change is not acceptable.

gabrial heart · Nov 02, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

hmm not really, that is why anet is pushing ppl to play the way they wanted. you buy FIFA and need for speed, you play soccer and drive cars

. you can't kill nobody in fifa right

? you only pay the fee to enter anet's house, you dont own this place you are just a guest. you can 't really do w/e you want, in most mmorph you can't really.you neither change yourself or you change the game you play, i dont think anet will reprogram the game for you

..
and to Perkunas, then you are not coming back

i am sure that we will miss you. anet nerf aoe long time and ago and they they never change it back and i doubt that they will change thsi one. and btw you can still kill things with your heroes, i kill most monsters outside the gate with easy. just not the high lvl ones

...

Wel I'm not sure if you have really bad english or you're 10, but none of what you wrote makes any sort of sense.

People don't go to "houses" they don't like visiting. So if anets house is a shambles and the AI "in" it are horrible, they won't be getting any visitors.

No one here is discussing the aoe changes they made over a year ago, we are talking about almost totally unusable hench/heros for the most simpilist of things in the game. We are talking about AI that doesn't function in a viable way, thats really all there is to it.

Tommy · Nov 02, 2006, 06:49 PM // 18:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by gabrial heart

Wel I'm not sure if you have really bad english or you're 10, but none of what you wrote makes any sort of sense.

People don't go to "houses" they don't like visiting. So if anets house is a shambles and the AI "in" it are horrible, they won't be getting any visitors.

No one here is discussing the aoe changes they made over a year ago, we are talking about almost totally unusable hench/heros for the most simpilist of things in the game. We are talking about AI that doesn't function in a viable way, thats really all there is to it.

yeah, English is not my first language and i am reading this forum with my English translator

. my point is that you guys dont pay the monthly fee. you only pay the fee to enter the game. So you have no right to judge whether or not this game is good or bad. You dont run this game, so you like it or not doesn't have any impact on this game. You dont play the way you want, nobody really can. I want to dance for money, and i dance in LA for hours i only get 500 gold. I play with heroes, i did just fine. I dont use heroes in mission i only use them for quests. I got a guild i can play with my guildies. Obviously this AI is bugged, Anet needs more time to work on it. and when did Guru become an English speaker only forum? your point makes no sense for me either. Heroes work for quests imao but not for missions. so get real ppl for missions and take heroes for quests until anet fix the problem. Keep pushing Gaile and Anet wont do any good. It will only lead to more bugs. and btw you can control your heroes, you can force them to use the skills you want them to. open the heroes' skill bar next to their name. press it and that is it. you can also position your heroes. man you need to learn how to work with your heroes first. Here is a good example, good player like my old guild leader can henchies all missions in cantha and Tryia, bad players can't even finish a quest with them. You need to learn how to work with heroes not the other way around. I seriously dont see how is the current heroes not usable. i found them still better than the vast majority of pugs.

Cyan The Archer · Nov 02, 2006, 07:02 PM // 19:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

yeah, English is not my first language and i am reading this forum with my English translator

. my point is that you guys dont pay the monthly fee. you only pay the fee to enter the game. So you have no right to judge whether or not this game is good or bad. You dont run this game, so you like it or not doesn't have any impact on this game. You dont play the way you want, nobody really can. I want to dance for money, and i dance in LA for hours i only get 500 gold. I play with heroes, i did just fine. I dont use heroes in mission i only use them for quests. I got a guild i can play with my guildies. Obviously this AI is bugged, Anet needs more time to work on it. and when did Guru become an English speaker only forum? your point makes no sense for me either. Heroes work for quests imao but not for missions. so get real ppl for missions and take heroes for quests until anet fix the problem. Keep pushing Gaile and Anet wont do any good. It will only lead to more bugs. and btw you can control your heroes, you can force them to use the skills you want them to. open the heroes' skill bar next to their name. press it and that is it. you can also position your heroes. man you need to learn how to work with your heroes first. Here is a good example, good player like my old guild leader can henchies all missions in cantha and Tryia, bad players can't even finish a quest with them. You need to learn how to work with heroes not the other way around.

Thats like saying you have no right to judge if you like bananas or not. The one you bought it from says "This banana tastes good!", and according to you, the seller will always be right.

It have a huge impact on the game. If there is a change that a most people dont like, and Anet dont give a ---- about it, then they loose money(They dont buy next chapter). So if the majority dont like the change, Anet have to change it.

As far as i know, Guru dont allow people to speak German, Danish, Russian and other languages. Only english.

Maybe you like to have 4 skillbars to control, but most people dont. Most people wouldnt even be able to.

You old guild leader? OK, but that was BEFORE this "update". I could hench it all aswell, but not anymore.

gabrial heart · Nov 02, 2006, 07:25 PM // 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

yeah, English is not my first language and i am reading this forum with my English translator

. my point is that you guys dont pay the monthly fee. you only pay the fee to enter the game. So you have no right to judge whether or not this game is good or bad. You dont run this game, so you like it or not doesn't have any impact on this game. You dont play the way you want, nobody really can. I want to dance for money, and i dance in LA for hours i only get 500 gold. I play with heroes, i did just fine. I dont use heroes in mission i only use them for quests. I got a guild i can play with my guildies. Obviously this AI is bugged, Anet needs more time to work on it. and when did Guru become an English speaker only forum? your point makes no sense for me either. Heroes work for quests imao but not for missions. so get real ppl for missions and take heroes for quests until anet fix the problem. Keep pushing Gaile and Anet wont do any good. It will only lead to more bugs. and btw you can control your heroes, you can force them to use the skills you want them to. open the heroes' skill bar next to their name. press it and that is it. you can also position your heroes. man you need to learn how to work with your heroes first. Here is a good example, good player like my old guild leader can henchies all missions in cantha and Tryia, bad players can't even finish a quest with them. You need to learn how to work with heroes not the other way around. I seriously dont see how is the current heroes not usable. i found them still better than the vast majority of pugs.

We don't pay a monthly fee by design, as intended by anet/ncsoft, we also don't buy any future releases if this is the way the AI stays, which mean no one plays. So i think as players we will judge whether or not anet or anyone else for that matter says we have a right to. Anet of course KNOWS the player base must be happy with the game, so they listen and make changes accordingly. Another usefull way to see that comes across from the forums. You of course are judging as well, which according to you, you shouldn't be doing either.

I'd glady go back to tyrian hench AI and sure i can beat both campaigns with those hench, so I'm thinking that the old hench aren't an issue right this moment. The issue is with this update and judging by the posts in this thread I'm not alone in thinking the AI is, for the most part, unenjoyable and hardly worth adjusting strategies to meet the way they are now.

If you don't see how the are unsuable then congrats, but you are in the minority so it seems. I'm not threatening to leave the game, I'm sure i would figure a way to adjust or not use the ai heros/hench at all. Concidering this is a new campaign, with new prospective players, if seasoned players are unhappy with the changes, I doubt this games AI ,the way it stands, will be recruiting new paying and judging members.

You're right, this game is designed a certain way and then modified to make it fun for as many people as possible, so if you're trying to dance for money in LA and not getting paid, then you're playing the wrong game, since the quest to dance for money, last time i checked, was unavailable. Again thats not even remotely the issue here.

Anarkii · Nov 02, 2006, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tommy

my point is that you guys dont pay the monthly fee. you only pay the fee to enter the game. So you have no right to judge whether or not this game is good or bad.

Wrong. Anyone who pays for a product has full right to express his grievances/dissatisfaction about it, and this forum is a very appropriate place for people to let out their thought/suggestions about the way the game is evolving.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 02, 2006, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Anet has the right to make changes.

We have the right to voice our opinions about those changes.

Anet is not required to respond or react to our opinions.

Fewer positive changes will be made if no one voices an opinion.

It's really that simple for me. I like the ability to set up heroes and their skills, I like the scenery, I like many of the other new changes. I do NOT like the AI as it is now, because for me it resembles true intelligence far less than the previous version did. It appears to have been aimed at farmers/runners without enough consideration to what it did to the rest of the game.

Heroes need better energy management. Continually starting to cast a spell then canceling it cannot be considered intelligent on any level. The monks should be willing to cast bonds/sustained enchantments on other party members if we set them up to do so.

The running monk issue is worn out, but again doesn't really resemble intelligence, nor does the kiting across an entire map while leaving the group far behind. The ability of enemies to keep up with speed enhanced players is just plain cheap unless they are packing running skills.

We should also keep in mind that not everyone has played Prophecies and Factions for a year or more. Things at the beginning of the game do need to be easy enough for others to get a handle on how the game works. IMO this includes not only level and skill bar, but also the AI used for the enemies.

Ultimately it would seem to me that the more people who can play the game the way that they enjoy it, the better off the whole thing is.

If someone wants to spend all their time killing the same 20 things over and over again so they can get some spiffy new armor I really don't care. I'm not personally interested in doing that, but it doesn't hurt me any if someone else does it.

If people just want to mindlessly hack and slash through the game that's fine with me.

What would make sense is a "difficulty" option so that you could match the AI to your preference of gameplay. Of course the drops should be adjusted accordingly so that only the best ones showed up on the highest difficulty level -- and in groups I guess the leader's choice would determine the difficulty level for the party.

The other thing is more variety in AI. I expect certain types of monsters to be smarter than others. A Mursaat Elementalist is likely to be much more intelligent than Vermin and the AI ideally would reflect that. The Vermin might be smart enough not to stand in a Firestorm, but it's unlikely they'd think it was necessary to break aggro from a single guy with an axe. The Mursaat on the other hand might be smart enough to put a slow hex on you, interrupt you if you tried to do anything, use spells that knock you down, and use other spells that have extra impact if you are knocked down.

I've said all that to say this: There's no way to make everyone 100% happy and no particular style of play is "right" or "wrong". However, the more options that people have to play the way they want to play, the better the game will seem to each individual.

0siris · Nov 02, 2006, 08:28 PM // 20:28

Quote:

What would make sense is a "difficulty" option so that you could match the AI to your preference of gameplay. Of course the drops should be adjusted accordingly so that only the best ones showed up on the highest difficulty level -- and in groups I guess the leader's choice would determine the difficulty level for the party.

The other thing is more variety in AI. I expect certain types of monsters to be smarter than others. A Mursaat Elementalist is likely to be much more intelligent than Vermin and the AI ideally would reflect that. The Vermin might be smart enough not to stand in a Firestorm, but it's unlikely they'd think it was necessary to break aggro from a single guy with an axe. The Mursaat on the other hand might be smart enough to put a slow hex on you, interrupt you if you tried to do anything, use spells that knock you down, and use other spells that have extra impact if you are knocked down.

Although I like the idea of difficutly options, I can't see how they would be implemented into the game. Basically the only time they would be available is when playing with hench, because I just don't see a group of 8 people agreeing on what difficulty they should complete the quest. I was in a group last night that couldn't even agree on which way to go!

Very interesting thoughts there Kilgore, thanks for sharing.

Anarkii · Nov 02, 2006, 08:36 PM // 20:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0siris

Although I like the idea of difficutly options, I can't see how they would be implemented into the game.

In my opinion, Master Difficulty quests and Elite Missions should handle this. These are meant to be challenging and hard, requiring intense coordination and focus, and if AI owns you time and again, and the mission is beaten only by a few groups in a day, its none for the worse.

But the ordinary casual PvEr, looking to tramp along joyfully through the main story shouldnt have to face such nuances.

Sir Kilgore · Nov 02, 2006, 08:40 PM // 20:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by 0siris

Although I like the idea of difficutly options, I can't see how they would be implemented into the game. Basically the only time they would be available is when playing with hench, because I just don't see a group of 8 people agreeing on what difficulty they should complete the quest. I was in a group last night that couldn't even agree on which way to go!

Very interesting thoughts there Kilgore, thanks for sharing.

Np. Some things would definitely have to be ironed out. Maybe a system similar to the standard/expert/master completion of missions based on the difficulty setting in which you completed it. I think if you just let the leader choose the difficulty it would be fine. I see all the time in Factions, "Masters GLF xxxx (usually monk

)". I think you'd see something similar with the difficulty settings.

Depending on how the game is set up this could be very difficult to put into practice at this point -- perhaps next to impossible, but it might come closer to making the game fun for the casual player while still allowing a challenge for the hardcore gamer.

Perkunas · Nov 02, 2006, 10:25 PM // 22:25

I have a lot of time and money invested in this game. (the original game, factions, an 'extra' account, extra player slots for extra storage characters, etc.) It has taken me quite awhile to find the build I could work thru most of the game. Now with all the changes in the last few days, it is like starting all over. I still have 2 classes of characters I haven't tried at all because of how difficult the game was. Now not only do I not have those 2 classes, I have to go back and 'rebuild' my current characters to be able to play again at the level I was getting comfortable at. At present, I don't have that kind of time. That is my beef. For me it has gone beyond being a fun challenge to impossible. To me, NF has made my original game no longer any fun.

Cyan The Archer · Nov 02, 2006, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

The other thing is more variety in AI. I expect certain types of monsters to be smarter than others. A Mursaat Elementalist is likely to be much more intelligent than Vermin and the AI ideally would reflect that. The Vermin might be smart enough not to stand in a Firestorm, but it's unlikely they'd think it was necessary to break aggro from a single guy with an axe. The Mursaat on the other hand might be smart enough to put a slow hex on you, interrupt you if you tried to do anything, use spells that knock you down, and use other spells that have extra impact if you are knocked down

That is a great idea!

Amity and Truth · Nov 02, 2006, 10:52 PM // 22:52

*sigh*
Point of frustration has been reached.
Tried to cap the Avatar of Dwayna. I approach an enemy. He starts running straight into a second, third and fourth mob. I do not follow, he comes back and heals. I try to engage him again - he runs again straight into the mob.

Funny thing is, i had a snare and a speedbuff on me. He would run faster than me with speedbuff (a god damn priest!) and the snare was insta removed.

Tried to cap the Avatar of Balthazar. Needless to say the boss totally owned the party in a whole. One Attack -> everyone is dead.

That's it for me, i won't log in anymore until i read about another update to the AI. If that is the end of playing GuildWars. So be it. I played it to have fun, not to have to suffer from frustration this update has caused. And yes i know that A-Net doesn't care about this. They basically said so in one of their chats.
I might just be one but you know... i see a lot of frustration in the game currently. Guildies moaning and ragequitting out of missions because they're pissed by getting constantly spiked. Friends telling me they quit the game until the AI is updated again. Local channels a collective cussing about it...
Tell me whatever you want, mark it an improvement and say that you'll never revert an improvement. But know, an improvement might not what it is named.
A thought blessing might turn into a curse, like this update.
So you're not reverting an improvement, but moreover a mistake.
So long.

winkgood · Nov 02, 2006, 10:56 PM // 22:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Kilgore

The other thing is more variety in AI. I expect certain types of monsters to be smarter than others. A Mursaat Elementalist is likely to be much more intelligent than Vermin and the AI ideally would reflect that. The Vermin might be smart enough not to stand in a Firestorm, but it's unlikely they'd think it was necessary to break aggro from a single guy with an axe. The Mursaat on the other hand might be smart enough to put a slow hex on you, interrupt you if you tried to do anything, use spells that knock you down, and use other spells that have extra impact if you are knocked down.

They need to learn from WoW. Humanoids run when they are low on health. Monsters do not.

Airbag · Nov 02, 2006, 11:14 PM // 23:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by winkgood

They need to learn from WoW. Humanoids run when they are low on health. Monsters do not.

QFT

Also, tanks can actually tank there by taunting foes..
I compare it with what it would be like if Blizzard decides to change Nefarians AI to 'go after priests and ignore sunders and taunts from warriors'. It might be realistic and challanging (although, this case would be impossible), but not fun..

I guess someone will quote me and say : "go play WoW then", but I'm not too fond of paying a monthly fee ...

Age · Nov 02, 2006, 11:18 PM // 23:18

I haven't noticed to much of a problems with Henchies as before i can send them in on thier on to get a jop done.The missions would be the testing stage.